GB: You know, I really don't keep up. This might sound funny, but I've never listened to a lot of singer songwriter stuff. There are certain people that come along over the years...I'm a huge fan of Jesse Winchester, a huge fan of Ferron, and a huge fan of young Ani DiFranco. But I listen to a lot of blues, quite a bit of jazz, and a lot of rockabilly. I don't know why, but I just don't listen to a lot of singer songwriter stuff.

PM: I really didn't either, until we started this magazine. My listening habits were much like yours, blues and jazz, mostly.

GB: A lot of the acoustic singer songwriter stuff is a little lame, to my ears. A lot of that stuff, it doesn't really grab me. There are exceptions, Richard Thompson, for instance. There are some major artists, of course.

PM: I have mixed feelings about the earnest storyteller.

GB: Yeah, I can't really hang with that, either. It's a generalization, but I think that one of the weaknesses in the singer songwriter scene is the over emphasis on lyrics. The music frequently takes a back seat. As far as coming up with different grooves and changes, a lot of it is just not there, to my ears.

PM: I've talked with a lot of younger songwriters, to find that they had no roots. Their influences started in the 60s, or even the 70s. Early country, delta blues, jazz, wasn't really a part of their background.

GB: Yeah, I know what you mean.

PM: Do you think that aspiring singer songwriters are out of luck without a significant label and booking agency?

GB: I don't think so, man. I think what I've done and what Ani has done are examples of how you can make your own way with that stuff. When I wanted to start recording, I sent my little tape out to all the major labels, and nobody was interested. So I started my own label. We've done fine, and Ani's done the same thing on a much bigger scale. I know a lot of people in the folk field who want to get on major labels, but I think they're dreaming.

PM: What I mean is, if you don't have a label as big as Red House or as respected as, say, Signature, and the best booking company, are you done for?

GB: No, I don't think so at all. I think what you really have to do is do good and interesting work. I think it's still true that if you're doing something really cool, people are gonna notice. You don't need to do that much self promotion if you're doing something exciting. Just get it out there, get online, book some gigs, whatever.

There's a lot of mediocre stuff out there. But if you're doing something really good, you may not sell a lot of records, but you can sell enough and get enough gigs to make a living. I think that's still true, I hope it is. One thing that's different is that when I was growing up, you could live the bohemian lifestyle a lot easier than you can now. I would play some gigs, then go broke, and get a job someplace, in the factory, or driving a truck or something. You could get those jobs. I'd work six months and build up a little stash of money, then go and play for awhile again. The edge was a little bigger when I was growing up. Nowadays, the tough thing for the young people, with the world getting more corporate, it's more like "are you in or are you out?" A job that you can work for six months and actually put a stash together, those are getting harder to find.

PM: Because rent and bills are so high now, that you're lucky if that job you find just covers your bills.

GB: Right, you just get by. You're not likely to fund a little tour.

I think that part is harder. The edge, the margins have gotten smaller. The other thing that I see is that to keep a healthy music scene, we really need a healthy independent label scene. The majors are in such upheaval now, trying to figure out what's going to happen next, and how to make money off it. [laughs] Independent America, not just labels, but coffee shops, grocery stores, and bookstores are really at risk, and that worries me. We need a lot of voices, not just the one voice coming from the tallest corporate tower.

PM: Can't just be Dan Rather.

GB: No. I see those things as being problems.

PM: I wonder, like everybody does, if the internet is going to turn into something good for the Indie musician, something that actually sells records?

GB: I think it has wonderful potential. The first time I got hip to it was about 8 or 9 years ago, I was doing a little gig in Ely, Minnesota. The promoter was going to do an AIDS walk, he was walking all the way to Chicago to raise money for AIDS research. It was an obscure little town, at a high school auditorium. I figured if we got 200 people, it would raise a couple of thousand bucks and be a good thing. The place was crammed with 700 people, almost everyone had heard about it through the internet. At that point I thought, "Hmm...this could be a good thing." All you really need is for people to look at it. The internet is like all the other things we invented. It's got all our good stuff, and all our trash, too, that's democracy. I find the whole concept very exciting. It really can be a community building tool, a level playing field to do your thing. Do your music, get it on there, start a magazine, whatever. It's more level a playing field than any media I can think of. Access to radio and television these days, forget about it. The one fear I have about the internet, once again, is that if the government and the corporations will find a way to take it over and regulate it, they will.

PM: I think it may be too late now. There would be some real trouble.

GB: I hope it is. Yes, I think there would.

PM: But like you say, it's the good, the bad, and the ugly. The rise of independent everything, but the proliferation of pornography, for example. There's a plausible possibility that they could come in through the child pornography door and take the thing over.

GB: That is a possibility. And it's that old debate that's always going on, where does my freedom end and your invasion of it begin. But I hope you're right, that it's too late for them to come in and take it away.

PM: Are you making a better living all the time, or does it go up and down?

GB: I'm making a better living all the time. I make a lot more per gig than I used to, and each record I put out sells a little bit more than the one before.

PM: Is Covenant moving along nicely?

GB: It's the best seller so far. I think the last studio record, Slant 6 Mind, sold 50 or 55. [thousand units]

PM: And The Poet Game got up there, too, right?

GB: Yeah. And my label says that Covenant is moving a lot faster than both of those. And then there's the little record I put out here on our local label, Trailer Records.

PM: What's that?

GB: It's called Over and Under.

PM: How can I get that?

GB: There's a website, trailer-records.com. We have no distribution, and are trying to figure out what to do about that, it's just a little local label. But that's been a lot of fun, to do that project.

PM: What moved you to do the Trailer Records deal?

GB: Well, a young pal of mine here in town, Dave Zollo, he runs the label. I always wanted to do a Trailer record, and it happened that right after I recorded Covenant, I wrote this batch of songs. We just went into a little studio here in town and cut it, and took a few photos, you know. It reminded me of the early days of starting Red House, it was very much the same kind of living room start up.

PM: So, is Bo [Ramsey] on that record?

GB: Oh, sure.

PM: I saw him play one time with my buddy Kenny Vaughn on the other guitar, they were playing with Lucinda.

GB: Yeah, I think Bo's out again with Lucinda, he just did SxSW with her. [a big annual talent convention in Austin, TX] He was actually one of the co-producers on her new record.

PM: He's a helluva foil for you.

GB: Boford, yeah, he is. A man of few words and few notes, but they're all good.

PM: Is he a man of few words?

GB: Well, when he's around people. When it's just he and I in the car, he's a great conversationalist. He'll just say a few things when he's out in public, but they're all really good.

PM: Where's he from?

GB: And sometimes he'll say something about music that really kills me. Bo, he's from Burlington, southern Iowa. [laughing] I mean, I picked up a Van Morrison record, like 3 or 4 years ago. Bo asked me, "How was it?" I said, "Well, you know, it had three or four good tunes on it, and the rest were kind of a straight line." And, typical of Bo, he said, "He's done. He's been done for a while." [laughing]

PM: So, we've had a couple of words on Bo. How about a few on your friend Ani DiFranco?  continue

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